Reaching Career Longevity and Success in Racquets - with Chuck Gill
Hi, this is Kim Bastable and this is the final episode of season three. We're gonna wow you with information from Chuck Gill today. But we wanted to let you know we're planning for season four and we are looking for your feedback on who you'd like to hear from and what topics would interest you. Also, be sure to like and share episodes of Racquet Fuel so we can grow our listenership. Look forward to hearing from you.
Kim Bastable:Now let's get to the episode.
Episode Narration:Welcome to Racquet Fuel, where we launch into great conversations and share powerful tools to help you become a stronger Racquets leader. Your hosts are Kim Bastable, a former All American Tennis player and now the Director of Tennis Management at the University of Florida. And Simon Gale, the USTA Senior Director of Racquet Sports Development. Are leaders made or are they born? In this episode of Racquet Fuel, Kim and Simon explore the intentionality and life planning of respected industry leader Chuck Gil.
Episode Narration:His longevity and success in leadership roles has not been by accident. He shares how he curated his learning to build his skills off the court to be ready to take on more challenges with each and every decade of his life. Here's Kim and Simon.
Kim Bastable:Welcome to Racquet Fuel. I'm Kim Vestibull, and I'm here with my cohost, Simon Gale. How are you today, Simon? I bet you are excited for a fun conversation today with Chuck.
Simon Gale:Absolutely. And just a quick sidebar or backstory with Chuck. I've met Chuck many times, but when I first started here at the campus, he was on-site with his son and took the time out of his day to stop by and say hi and wish me all the best. Those are gestures I remember and are the types of qualities and people that I really respect, so I appreciate that moment. It was not a long moment, but it was a moment where Chuck said, you know, best of luck with everything.
Simon Gale:Maybe he knew what I was in for when I was getting started here, and that's why he wished me all the best. But I appreciate that, and that's the type of person we've got on the call today.
Chuck Gill:Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. It's a perfect day for me to do a podcast. It's raining here in sunny South Florida, so I'm looking forward to spending some time with both
Kim Bastable:of you. This is great. I have a similar story about Chuck. I was just really the people person that he is. I was so thoughtful.
Kim Bastable:She saw my husband sitting outside an industry meeting sort of lonely and in the hallway. What So does Chuck do when he finds his way out there to introduce himself and strike up a conversation? And he just was so kind and nice to notice that and then take the time to do that. So Chuck, I'm just kind of curious, have you always been a people person or did you figure that out or maybe you're a closet introvert, I don't know.
Chuck Gill:I don't think I'm a closet anything ever. You pretty much, what you see is what you get. And no, I'm very blessed because I do enjoy people. I like being around people. I do remember that instance when I met your husband because he had that look that that my wife has at times or I'm sure any of our spouses that are in the tennis business have when, you're trying to work your way through a room and everyone stops you and you've gotta be that people person and speak to everyone.
Chuck Gill:Your husband happened to have that look that that was very patient, but it was definitely a, okay. You've talked long enough. So I went out there and started, chatting with him a little bit about stuff and got to know him, which was really good. But no, I'm definitely not a closet introvert. I'm very lucky that I enjoy being around people because this would be a miserable profession if you weren't.
Kim Bastable:Well, the people part is a definite key. So I'm glad for that.
Simon Gale:So Chuck, can you do a little bit of a rundown of your work history for us? When I ask that question, it does not mean you're getting older, my friend. It just means you've got extensive experience and much knowledge to share. It's got nothing to do with age. So could you just give us a bit of a history of some of the positions you've had?
Simon Gale:There's a variety of positions there, and I think it's very interesting for everybody to understand just how much knowledge you bring to this conversation today.
Chuck Gill:Well crafted question, Simon, focusing on experience and knowledge and not touching on age. So I really appreciate that. But no, I've been in this business a long time and I started out as a tennis instructor at summer camp teaching adults at at different places for for a company. And then, I I I kind of evolved into with my, you know, with my education, I studied business management and a little bit of accounting. So I was really blessed.
Chuck Gill:I hit the tennis industry when the tennis boom was going on, and I became one of the younger directors of tennis at a resort Top Notch at Stowe in Stowe, Vermont in my early twenties. So I worked at Top Notch at Stowe and I managed and directed a really nice fine tennis resort and it gave me a lot of different experiences. I got to work running an indoor center and I also got to get experience of, summer camp and summer resort business. Then I moved to the Boca Resort where I was there for about eight years, and then I had a combination of resort and we had a club component. Then after that, I was fortunate.
Chuck Gill:I spent the bulk of my career at the club at Ibis in West Palm Beach. And I got to really within those different experiences, you know, being a resort and a club. When I went to Ibis, I spent almost the first half of my twenty five years at Ibis. Part of it was a developer owned, and then we navigated the sometimes perilous path of going from a developer owned to a member owned member equity club. So I got to see the private club business on two sides.
Chuck Gill:And as you as you mentioned, you know, as I was getting close to retirement, the village of Wellington where I have lived for twenty six years had a need for us for a director of tennis. So now I'm I'm this is it. I'm wrapping it up at the village of Wellington. And I'm very happy that I'm in a public tennis center. I would say that one of the things that was unique maybe in my career path is every job I've taken has been able to prepare me better for the next one.
Chuck Gill:And that wasn't always thoughtful and always planned on my part, but it just happened to work out that way that I went from directing a resort that had a small club to going to a resort that had a larger club that prepared me a little better to go to actually a large club. And, you know, as we'll probably talk about later, now I'm at the village of Wellington, and I can use all the things that I've hopefully learned over the over the past few years of growing the sport to really grow the sport now at a public tennis center where we can be totally inclusive and we can do things that at a private club were a little challenging, but a public tennis center with 21 courts and managing several others, I kind of have a blank page to do anything that grows tennis. So it's yeah, a lot of positions, a lot of years, but still going strong I hope.
Simon Gale:Kim, there seems to be a bit of a trend here where everybody we're speaking to recently started at a summer camp and ended up in Vermont at some point. Chuck, that's how I started as well. So maybe summer camps in Vermont are the secret to starting a long career. But the city of Wellington is lucky to have you and the pros who work there are fortunate to have someone with your experience and knowledge and skill set guiding them. What was interesting when we've talked in the past was how intentional you were about your career and your goals at an early stage.
Simon Gale:It's an interesting story and one that would benefit many young pros. It's helpful in creating career longevity. It's great to hear that story, so can you share that? Just the amount of planning and thought that went into, hey, here's where I am and here's where I want to end up. Tell that story for us.
Chuck Gill:Sure. I'd be happy to. You know, early in my career, I I loved tennis. I just loved the sport of tennis. I loved being around it.
Chuck Gill:I liked teaching it. I enjoyed running tournaments. I loved playing tennis. I I loved everything about the sport. I was like a tennis nut from the time I was in my late teens until I got in the career.
Chuck Gill:And once I got into the tennis business, I I really thought about longevity, and I thought about friends that I knew and peers that I knew that started off teaching tennis, and then they eventually, you know, got into real estate and investments because you do learn some terrific skills early on simply teaching tennis. You learn how to communicate with people. You learn how to present. You learn how to speak. There are a lot of things that really are good about learning to teach tennis for a living, and those are skills that translate.
Chuck Gill:I I always thought that I wanted to be in tennis for a very long time. And so as as we discussed, I I tried to be really purposeful purposeful about, okay, I'm in my mid twenties. What is this career gonna look like for me when I'm 35? What is this career gonna look like when I'm 45? And And if I'm so blessed and I'm healthy enough, what will it look like beyond 55?
Chuck Gill:And and I came up with a little formula, which I I shared at one of the other conferences where I I I basically did some calculations. And I've always been inquisitive about people who are really good at business, not necessarily the tennis business, but have longevity in in careers in other businesses, whether it's in sales or whether it's in, you know, owning a a trucking company or if it's an attorney. You know, how do they, one, stay fresh? How do they stay engaged in what they're doing? And how do they avoid burnout?
Chuck Gill:And what model do they use? And I pretty much, as I said, I came up with this little model for myself, and I internalized it, and I shared it later. But I knew that early on, I could make 80% of my money on the court giving lessons. And that was pretty good because a lot of people have that career and they're front end loaded. They teach they teach a lot.
Chuck Gill:They do a lot of hours on the court. But then I realized that that might not be a model that will sustain me in my fifties and might not even sustain me in my thirties. So from a very early, point in my career I thought okay, how do I gradually shift that paradigm so that I can make more money or as much money or whatever I make but how do I avoid the risk of rolling an ankle, getting tennis elbow, getting sick? How do I get paid more for being off the court and still involved in tennis and still contributing to whoever my employer was or if I'm self employed contributing? But how can I get more?
Chuck Gill:So I kinda came up with a with a model where I said, look. In my forties in my twenties, it's okay to make 80% of my money on the court. But by the time I'm in my mid thirties, I need to be making no more than 50% of my money on the court. Now I could be directing others or running tournaments or managing an operation. But by my mid thirties, that needs to shift to fiftyfifty.
Chuck Gill:And then if I'm still doing this, by the time I'm in my later years in my fifties, that scale has to really shift to where 60 to 70 to even 80% of what I earn really has to be earned by some management skills I've developed or running operations and getting paid for that as opposed to simply being on the court. And unfortunately, I had friends that were sometimes 60 years old and they were telling me, yeah, I'm gonna have to get out of the business because I got tennis elbow or my back is hurt, I have a hip replacement, I need this. That never really was attractive to me. I always wanted to find a way to navigate around that. So I came up with a sliding scale for myself and I made sure that if I and I even wrote down on paper, I mean I wrote it down and said if I'm in my 60s and I'm still teaching tennis, I wanna be doing it on my terms, not because it's 50% of my income, but I'd like to be working with people I enjoy working with, whether it's juniors or adults.
Chuck Gill:And I'd rather be doing it on my terms so I'm doing it above and beyond what I would typically make. And look, a lot of life is luck and a lot of it is planning and visualizing what happens. But I feel like I'm very lucky because I was able to stick with that.
Kim Bastable:It's great that, yeah, you said it does take some luck, but maybe it also is the ability to navigate yourself thoughtfully. You said you have a business background from your college, but what did you do? How did you learn those business skills so that you could make that happen? You could sell yourself into positions where you could be leading more, maybe less on the court. And I think that might also go into industry conventions.
Kim Bastable:What did you learn from those? Was there a particular way you thought through those? Because people need to know how to learn these off court skills.
Chuck Gill:Well I attended my first world conference in I think 1984, so there you go, there's your age thing. But I was always curious about the business of tennis. I was always curious as well as I wanted to be the best teacher I could and the best instructor I could, but I was always curious and I always kind of sought after those seminars business and programming and management and, you know, how to operate a profitable pro shop because I knew that long term those were skills that will really help me long term. They might not be that important to me short term, but I really want to understand how those work. I I always gravitated towards those type of classes.
Chuck Gill:So and when I was the USPTA Florida president, I always tried to make sure that we helped all of the coaches at least get an opportunity to attend classes where they could learn business skills as well as the Xs and Os of how to run teams and drill swaps. So I found USPTA very, very helpful. I found the, conferences that I went to, division and, national conferences, really, really helpful with USPTA. Later on when I moved to IBIS, my general manager who was, Steve Logodeis, who was so supportive of me and my education, I joined CMAA. And the Club Managers Association of America actually gave me really good education on how clubs run and what does a dues model look like and do you take operations like tennis and golf and are they profit centers?
Chuck Gill:Are food and beverage actually profit centers? Are they subsidized? So I know that's a bit long winded, but, yeah, I I try to always find out how my business should be run, and I always try to find out how my employer's business was run because the more I could be relatable on what the club is trying to do, always thought that I'd be a better employee. I think if you're a lifelong learner and you really try to always better yourself with things you're not good at, I think it's helpful.
Simon Gale:I think one of the words I picked up on out of that answer is curiosity. And there's a big difference between being curious and doing something about developing those skills versus the teaching pro who just wants to get off the court because they don't want to teach as much. And the pathway is I want to get off the court and teach less. But your curiosity led to developing a skill set that actually enabled you to do that. And I think the mistake sometimes is I just want to get off the court and I'm ready to go into a leadership role.
Simon Gale:But the question you have to ask yourself is have I built the skill set or the toolkit to enable me to actually be successful in that role?
Chuck Gill:I think that's absolutely true. And I've been really happy to share that with other coaches along the way because I sat there and took a pencil to it. At one point, I counted about 60 to almost 70 assistants I've had that are now tennis directors. So I don't need a title to say I mentor anybody, and I don't think of myself as being a mentor, but I'm certainly happy to share information and maybe it's leading by example, but encouraging others that have worked for me that, look, this is what your career could look like. And this is how you'll have a career where you're 60 years old and you're burned out with tennis elbow giving forty hours of lessons a week.
Chuck Gill:Here's what your career path might look like if you, like you said Simon, if you're curious about how to manage an operation and how important your team is, think it's easier.
Simon Gale:Well I think great mentors do it naturally. It's not necessarily a hat or a title that they wear, and they do it because they're passionate about developing people. I don't think it's something you necessarily set your mind to doing. It happens naturally as a leader because you want others to succeed. So congratulations on all those people you've mentored.
Simon Gale:Just changing direction a little bit, let's talk about challenges in these leadership roles. You've held a lot of great leadership roles and clearly learnt a lot along the way. You're about to take on the role of being President of USTA Florida, but when you're faced with challenges and we all know the job's not always smooth sailing, there's ups and downs in these leadership roles. How do you embrace or take those challenges head on and what's your approach to dealing adversity or difficult situations?
Chuck Gill:Well, I've certainly had some for sure. And my time as president of USPTA and my times as leadership on different boards, they are challenging. And I always looked at that challenge as being a blessing because I always liked my father had a quote. He said, Son, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. So take on the challenge of the difficulty as being kind of a badge of honor and you've got to be a problem solver.
Chuck Gill:And I actually tried to pass that along to my son who's in the film business now and he's trying to navigate a career making films. I said well you know son, this is problem solving and you've got to understand how to problem solve. I think generally challenge the with anything when you're in a leadership role is you have to build a consensus. And sometimes you have to get people to agree on doing something that isn't necessarily in their best interest, but it's in the best interest of the organization or the best interest of the sport or the best interest of of everyone involved. And I don't care if it's business or certainly politics.
Chuck Gill:Trying to convince someone that, that an action, whether it's mandatory education or moving a building or moving a a place of operation or moving on from your current job and retiring or a number of things that might be difficult, it's hard to get people to see that it's probably in everyone's best interest. I know personally, I attend meetings that I sometimes at the club, when I was in the private club business, I'd go to a lot of meetings, but I would always be able to at least rationalize rationalize it. It's in everybody's interest that I'm there, and it's okay. It's a little time out of my day, but I wanna make sure, you know, keep keep your eye on what's important and trying to build a consensus with everybody on why, you know, why for the greater good, you might have to sacrifice a little bit.
Kim Bastable:Well, has there been an example that you can give where you were able to, what's the tool you used? Is it just conversation or is there anything that you could say is the trick to that? Because I think that's an awesome, we all could do a better job of that in our world, but particularly in our industry where things can sometimes get fractured.
Chuck Gill:I don't think it's a secret sauce. I think it's a matter of talking and speaking and speaking clearly with a consistent message. I know when we were when we were introducing mandatory education, which was a very modest thing that we did with the USPTA. When we were introducing mandatory education, it certainly came with its challenges because all of a sudden we have, I mean, imagine this. You've got 500 tennis directors that have been doing their job very, very well.
Chuck Gill:They're securing their job, and they haven't had to do safe play and they haven't had to go through any education training at all. And all of a sudden now, in order to maintain your membership and your certification and your insurance, you have to do this. And I could relate to the person that said, to hell with you, I don't need to do this. I've got a job. But I think one of the things we did successfully and we did eventually have the vast majority of the people complied and understood, I think when you have a consistent message that if you raise the bar for everyone, then everyone gets better.
Chuck Gill:And it's much easier to go into a meeting and say a certified professional means this or a coach at the village of Wellington means this. You've all done safe play. You're all, certified from an accredited association. It means more for everyone when everyone has done it. And, you know, yeah, you might see going to a conference or sitting on six hours of webinars a pain in the ass, but you make everyone better by doing it.
Kim Bastable:That's a good example. That's where our industry is and hopefully we can always be improving, maybe in your word, always be curious. So let's go on to the idea that you now work for a public facility. You made the comment and you coming from a country club, which sounds like it was a development owned then member owned, so there's been differences there, but now you're in a public facility which you call the ultimate member model. Can you unpack that and describe some pros and cons of the public facility atmosphere that you're in now?
Chuck Gill:Sure. When I made that comment, and I made that comment early on when I got here, because when you learn the x's and o's of how a municipality works, and Wellington is not unique, you have you have stakeholders who are homeowners and taxpayers. And in a private club, you might have 2,000 homes if you're a very large community. And when you're not really allowed to drop your membership per se, you have to move. And when you move, someone else moves into your house and they assume your membership and they pay the HOA.
Chuck Gill:It's actually a very reasonable model because you protect the financial integrity of the place you live. Municipalities are exactly the same. When somebody moves out of the house, somebody else has to buy it, and someone else assumes the tax liability. So in that regard, a city or a village or a town is actually the ultimate membership model. You basically are paying taxes, and you have to participate in the wellness of the of the whole town.
Chuck Gill:Now when you when you look at, the model, the model's a little different because municipalities also have to pay for roads and traffic lights and and, you know, a much bigger space, but they still have parks and recreation and facilities they run. So it's really up to the the operators of parks and rec to make compelling arguments why tax dollars need to be sent their way because that's how you provide greater value and hopefully, greater, property values for the people that live there. So it was funny when I left the mandatory membership community, everybody was like, what's it like not working at a club? What's it like not working at a club? I said, you know, it's kind of ironic.
Chuck Gill:Cities are actually the ultimate mandatory membership because if you live there, you have to pay taxes. So you don't pay club dues, but you still pay taxes. So
Kim Bastable:What are some of the broad differences just to give our listeners a perspective of of maybe how your your job might have changed a little bit?
Chuck Gill:I I think the biggest difference is the inclusiveness at public tennis centers. And, you know, you you have a little less of the feeling that, you know, if you're at a member owned club, you're paying large amounts of dues and your services are, you know, you're you're expected a smaller group of people really control the facility. I think at a municipality, you have a larger group that you need to appeal to, and it it gave me a chance to really look at a tennis operation quite a bit differently and that, hey. On weekend afternoons, we wanna fill these courts. We have 21 tennis courts that are beautiful.
Chuck Gill:They were recently resurfaced, but we wanna find a way to maximize that asset, not necessarily as a for profit model, but just as a for pleasure model and for usage for the residents of of our city. They can now come and do it. We we privately use the tagline, we wanna be everybody's tennis center, which means we're not gonna cater to a small group of people who play there every day. They're very important to us. We love our permit holders, but we wanna be the tennis center for the coach who's in town with his, tournament player, and they're staying in Wellington, and they're playing a tournament in in Boca Raton.
Chuck Gill:We wanna be the tennis center that they can come in and book a court and go to the back and hit tennis balls with their student. We wanna be the place where, kids can learn to play tennis. And I think the inclusiveness is the is the, biggest difference because by membership, you mean you're private, and we try to not call our players members, they're permit holders, but everybody's a resident, everybody should get a chance to play. That's really the biggest difference. But other than that, it's incredibly similar because it's all about customer service.
Kim Bastable:So following up real quick on that, so I would say one of the biggest deals with that would be marketing to a different group. You've got to market to the masses versus market to your own members. So can you just give us a short snippet of how you're doing the marketing piece?
Chuck Gill:Well, we try to market through Parks and Rec, and we try to make sure that everybody understands that while we're a tennis center, and we happen to be on the other side of State Road 7, and we have a lot of land out here. So we're gonna market through Parks and Rec, and we want everyone to understand that there are policies that we have that have to adhere to the villages park and rec. How do we market? Well, we'll market through the schools because that's a good conduit to get to kids. We'll also market through the normal parks and rec vehicles, which is through their newsletters and through Civic Rec.
Chuck Gill:We have an online and Facebook. We're try to do just about everything we can to get the word out that tennis is a cool sport, we try to tell lots of stories on our Facebook page, which know a few of you have been on. But we try to celebrate successful coaches. We try to try to celebrate our successful kids, and we try to always tell the story that, you know, tennis is a great sport. Come over.
Chuck Gill:Get involved. If your kids are playing tennis, why aren't you? You're sitting on the bleachers and you're watching the the the kids do the junior program. Hey, guess what? We've got a mom's cardio class or a mom's beginner class at the same time.
Chuck Gill:All you need are sneakers. Come on out and have at it and try it.
Simon Gale:So Chuck, one of the descriptions I've heard for being a director in terms of hiring is that it's arguably the most important thing we do as leaders of a program. And unfortunately, what complements hiring is letting people go as well. So hopefully we all hire a lot more than we fire over the years. But in all the years of interviewing in your career, what are some of the kind of go to or favorite interview questions that you use to determine whether somebody is appropriate for your facility?
Chuck Gill:Well I very purposefully believe in you hire for attitude and you train for skill. You could have the most skilled person on the planet but if their attitude and their personality isn't going to fit into your culture, then you're going to have a problem. I'm very big on that. Again, one of my mentors said, he goes hire slow and fire fast. Take your time to get the right person and then nurture them and try to make sure that you've got them in an environment to be successful.
Chuck Gill:And then you can usually tell. I mean people don't improve. When you get them for those first ninety days, there's a reason there's a ninety day probation period. Ninety days, that's the best they're usually gonna be attitude wise. So if it's not good, just go ahead and part ways and move on.
Chuck Gill:It doesn't mean that you're a bad employer and it doesn't mean they're a bad employee. It just means the fit might not be right. As far as specific questions, I try to listen in these instances more than I talk as I'm doing now, but I believe that if I just ask, three simple questions, I can learn a lot about people. The first is, tell me about the best job you ever had and why you like and then I shut up and I see how long they can talk. And the only other question is, and you like that because?
Chuck Gill:And why and then then then the follow-up question is simply, can you tell me the worst job you've ever had? And what didn't you like about it? And if they can tell me one great job they had and there's seven bad jobs they had, I'm usually red flagged that something might be wrong because they might be the common denominator if it didn't work out seven other places. And conversely, some people will not say that a job was their worst job or their worst position. They'll just say, these were challenges I had, but I still basically liked it.
Chuck Gill:Now I'm getting warmer toward the type of person I want. But best job ever, worst job ever, shut up, let them talk. Sometimes they're gonna jump over the bar, and sometimes they're just gonna hit the wall, and you know. And the other question I I got from, working at a place and listening to someone who actually ran a really good restaurant, he he he said, I asked every interviewer whether they're applying to be a manager or a dishwasher. I said, are you he said, ask if you're comfortable in the role of being called a servant and see what they say.
Chuck Gill:And right out of the blocks, somebody's either gonna say, you know, that's fine. I like serving people. There's there's there's nobility in being a servant and helping people get what they want, and and there's honor in being a servant. Or they're gonna go, well, I'm nobody's servant. Well, okay.
Chuck Gill:You'll you'll learn a lot. But I always thought that and that's from, like, twenty five years ago, and I still use it from time to time. And then I'll just ask somebody when I'm not really getting the answers I wanna go, are you comfortable being called a servant? And if if you're comfortable in that, you're you're probably gonna deliver great service. And if you're not, I don't care how much you know about anything, you're probably going to be a poor servant.
Simon Gale:It's great insight and I think the fact you take something that someone said to you years ago and it sticks with you and you go through this interview process and those standard questions tend to be what you use. It's obviously insight into some mentoring at some point, but you start to fine tune your process.
Chuck Gill:An old fart, Simon, but a relatively bright old fart.
Simon Gale:Well, you said that, Chuck. Not me. That one's on you. Hey. I assume that at IBIS, you would have had an HR department or HR personnel who would help you deal with issues with staff.
Simon Gale:I've never had that until I came here to work at the campus and it's tremendously helpful in guiding me through ways to handle and maybe ways you should handle without that help. How has that experience helped you now that you're at a public facility? I assume you are now HR and you don't have a department to lean on. So how do you typically approach those type of conversations and how has your experience with an HR department in the past shaped how you approach these conversations?
Chuck Gill:Right, well the Village has a great HR department and I got to know the HR director early on. So you can still lean on them. If I had any advice to give anyone that was in a director's position is when you have an issue, lean on your HR department because they will tell you potentially where the potholes are and how to address certain issues. And sometimes if I have a counseling that's going to be potentially sticky, I will always call HR first. And I will say, this is the issue, and this is the way I'm gonna handle it, so help me with the language.
Chuck Gill:Because HR people I mean, trying to have a counseling session without an HR person assisting you would be like trying to go out and learn a topspin back end on your own. We're just not equipped to do it, and HR specialists can really help us. So I'm and I had a great relationship with my former HR director at IVUS Michelle. She was terrific. So, you know, I guess if there are any specifics when you're dealing with issues, one is try not to make it personal.
Chuck Gill:You're not really talking about the person. You're talking about the performance and the actions. Because anytime you're counseling someone, you know, I've learned that people can get very taken aback and think you're attacking them as a person, and that's really never what you wanna do. You know, try to have clarity and really focus on the issues and behavior that you want to change. And sometimes it's as simple as just I learned the four points, method of progressive discipline, which is one, tell them what you need and clarify that so they understand.
Chuck Gill:Jane, you work the front desk. We really need someone who's gonna be outgoing and friendly. And right now we're getting reports that you are not outgoing and friendly. So let's go for those two points. And then the next two points are we either change what we do, which would be a great outcome.
Chuck Gill:That would be outcome number one. We we either make sure that we greet people when they come in and and and show genuine interest and smile, in which case this is a great outcome. You keep your job and you're eligible for promotions. Or if this is something that you really can't do, then it might not be your fault. It probably is more my fault because I obviously did one of two things.
Chuck Gill:I either haven't trained you properly to do this or, I misread whether or not you were capable of doing it. So if I act upset at you, I'm really more upset at myself because I'll I'll just tell you, I I erred. I I erred on the, you know, I erred on the side of judgment. So but this is what the behavior needs to be. This is what the behavior current you know, you Simon, you do it every day.
Chuck Gill:Bob, you're late for a lesson. Again, you can't be late for a lesson anymore. Our customers expect you to be on time. If you continue to be late, if you get them to agree on those two things, then the other two things are easy. If you continue to be late, you're basically telling me that this job is not as important to you as you might wanna say, might have told me.
Chuck Gill:And the rewards are keeping your job versus me helping manage you to another one. HR simplistic.
Kim Bastable:Simple but hard maybe. It's not the easiest thing for most people. Conflict is difficult. Coaching those things I think is actually quite more difficult than teaching a forehand. Coaching on those soft skills, which is interesting.
Kim Bastable:Coaching somebody to be outgoing at the front desk probably challenges most of our directors more than obviously teaching a forehand or backhand.
Chuck Gill:They're basically the same skills. You know, Gina, I mean, Ted, you've got a one handed backhand, and you haven't passed anybody in five years. That's because you'd create no topspin. So if you choose to use a continental grip on your one handed backhand, you will have a great slice and never be able to come over. And we can agree on that.
Chuck Gill:Okay, so you're either gonna change it and it'll get better over time or you won't and just we'll work around it, do something else.
Kim Bastable:I guess one of those means you don't hit a good backhand and one of them means you lose your job. You go. There's a little bit different there.
Simon Gale:Okay.
Kim Bastable:All right, let's summarize here at the end. Let's come up. What's one thing that you would love to share with our listeners? Kind of the, what's the wise piece of wisdom that we could go away with? We always want to have tangible takeaways.
Kim Bastable:What do you think is super important for a current director of exports or future to really make sure they accomplish or do or what's your tip?
Chuck Gill:I thought about that a little bit. And I guess if it came down to just a couple things, it would be one, if you're a director, it's not about you. It's about your team. It you know, if if you're a good director, you have a great team around you. And at the end of the day, it's no longer about how well you do your job.
Chuck Gill:It's about how well you can support other people doing And I I absolutely believe that. And and, you know, and that with all of what that implies, that implies that when things are going really well, you're you're spreading the credit out. And when things are going very poorly, you take it on your shoulders and you say, that's, I'm failing in this regard. So it's all about your team. You've got to be able to support them.
Chuck Gill:The other thing is just be a lifelong learner. Read a lot. Try to expand your knowledge. When you think you know it all, you're toast. You never know it.
Kim Bastable:That's good. Can you tell us your one what's the book on your table right now? You got a book you're reading right now?
Chuck Gill:Oh, from the section, we got a copy of, Sathi Bakal's Loonshots, which is talking about how, creating great ideas and how, creating a culture of experimenting and trying new things, is really important. The book is Loonshots. And then anything by Simon Sinek is usually pretty good. It's about the why, is probably one of the best videos I've ever seen on YouTube, as well as, you know, loonshots I'm into now.
Kim Bastable:Very good. Well, Chuck, it's been a pleasure. We really have enjoyed having you. It's fun. We've got some tremendous ideas, I think, come from this.
Kim Bastable:So we want to thank you for your time. Thank you for being here on Racquet Fuel.
Chuck Gill:Great. Thanks for having me.
Simon Gale:Thanks Chuck. Cheers mate. Appreciate it.
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