Padel is Coming - Is Your Club Ready? with Eric Loftus
Welcome to Racquet Fuel, where we launch into great conversations and share powerful tools to help you become a stronger Racquet's leader. Your hosts are Kim Bastable, a former all American tennis player and now the director of professional Racquet's management at the University of Florida. And Simon Gale, the USTA senior director of Racquet Sports Development. Today on Racquet Fuel, Kim and Simon talk to Eric Loftus, who shares what's new with construction, trends, and costs, and what's the real deal on what it takes to add a Padel court. Here are Kim and Simon.
Kim Bastable:Welcome to Racquet Fuel. We're very excited today to have an expert in court building. This is something that I think is happening around the country furiously, and lots of questions are being asked. And excited to have Eric Loftus, who is on the board of the American Sport Builders Association, has fifty years in the tennis building in the in the industry in the, Northeast, and now has entered the Padel world and is doing that on more nationwide basis. So, Simon, man, this is we could have lots of questions.
Kim Bastable:You might just need to ask about your 100 courts down there, and we could spend a lot of time on that. But this is an exciting opportunity.
Simon Gale:You have known Eric for a little while, but I'm really curious to pick his brain today and learn more about about the kind of state of construction and what what the trends are. And just recently at Racquet X, the ASBA board or or some of the members were were speaking and there was a couple of statistics that they threw out which really grabbed me and I was like, we need to talk to Eric and understand more about this. So that's how we got here today.
Kim Bastable:Welcome, Eric. We are excited to have this conversation.
Eric Loftus:No. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate the time.
Kim Bastable:So, alright. Let's let's just start. Maybe let's just go we don't need to go back fifty years. Let's let's just go back fifteen. So as a court builder, what have you seen regarding the demand for construction in the last fifteen years?
Kim Bastable:Maybe all all types. And then maybe we feel like the last three to five, we've been on some faster treadmill, but give us the overview.
Eric Loftus:Yeah. Sure. I mean, I can speak before COVID. Let's just use that as kind of a before and after because that definitely was a jump start for all outdoor activities, and Racquet Sports was definitely included in that list. And before COVID, I would say tennis, depending on the stats and everything else, I mean was maybe looking at a slow growth, flat at times kind of teetering here and there.
Eric Loftus:There was always very strong, let's say certain socioeconomic classes, right? There was strong in the country club world, it was strong sort of a wealthy homeowner market. Ebbs and flows really to me depending on how strong some of the community presence was, depending on the area where you are. USTA has done a great job of, you know, bringing communities together in smaller clubs and, you know, building teams and everything else. If USTA, I think, had a strong presence in an area, they tend to be a good tennis community in that area.
Eric Loftus:Other than that, you know, you might say that tennis itself, and this is pre pickleball really, so I'm speaking tennis only, was kind of chugging along for what it's worth. Now I would say pickleball kind of started before, at least in our part of the world, before COVID. And then COVID forcing everybody outside was a shot in the arm, so to speak. And everything kind of took off from there. And now we're seeing over the last five years, Racquet Sports are definitely having a moment.
Eric Loftus:I really do believe that they're all good for each other. One thing about, let's just say pickle, no matter your feelings on it, it's putting a racket in or a paddle or in somebody's hands who may or may not have ever been exposed to a racket sport before, may have been a decent athlete. Now because of how ubiquitous it is, I think it's leaking into other sports. Think you're seeing now people being exposed and they're looking over their shoulder while saying, that tennis looks like fun. Padel looks like fun.
Eric Loftus:Platform tennis looks like fun and even squash to an extent. We're seeing a trend that at least as a builder who are reacting we react to demand. Right? The demand's already there by the time we're getting the call to build it. We're definitely on an uptrend across the board.
Kim Bastable:If you had the crystal ball, where do you see this going? What's the next five years?
Eric Loftus:I mean, obviously, that's to be determined, and anybody can make whatever claims they want to. I think tennis has continued to chug along, hopefully get a little bit better. I think pickleball is still growing, maybe not as fast as it was as the infrastructure kinda gets built out. And I think Padel is about to take off and rip and really start going through this country. So like I said, they all kind of help each other.
Eric Loftus:So hopefully, as a builder and someone who's been in the industry for a while, it's great to see. It's great to see people getting out. And hopefully, that is the trend. I mean, anything can happen, you know, we're we live in a wild world, so who knows? But I think we're in a positive upwards trend for Racquet Sports that's gonna last some time.
Simon Gale:So Eric, I used to own a club up in the Northeast and we were early adopter of pickleball back in Mhmm. Around '15. But what I remember about that time period was it's kind of when LED lights became Mhmm. Hot and everybody was in on it. There was companies all over the place trying to pitch their LED lights and their apps and everything that went with it.
Simon Gale:And it kind of felt like five, seven years later, only the best survived. There was a lot of companies who and our club was one of them where the guy went out of business. So with the massive amount of talk around investments in Racquet Sports, and you just alluded to that, especially with what you're seeing with Padel currently. What do you think that landscape looks like in the future? Is there going to be a money grab here and only the best survive?
Simon Gale:What are you seeing moving forward?
Eric Loftus:Yes. I think you're right. You know, one thing that's interesting about the LED, Simon, is you see that LED still exists everywhere, right? It's just only some of the companies have gone by the wayside. So anytime you get a hot trend, there's going to be everybody jumping in and winners and losers.
Eric Loftus:And I think at the end of the day, sound business practices are going to prevail, So there's going to be people like you're seeing all sorts of things in the news now about clubs, maybe some of the refueling investors. There's all sorts of stuff about some that are making and some aren't. Everybody goes in, but smart diligent business people will create smart, diligent businesses out of this. And I think that there will be some very good winners. I think there's gonna be some very good clubs and communities that come out of all of this.
Eric Loftus:And then there's gonna be some also rents. Like, I mean, you see it in just about any type of business. Like I said, the LED lights are still here, just not every company. Right?
Simon Gale:Sure. The ones who service their customers best and can come and fix problems and take care of people are the ones who are still in business.
Eric Loftus:Yeah. And that's something I really want to speak to in Padel at some point here because it's the the Wild West aspect of this boom is definitely and should be normalizing and that's the type of company that's gonna win.
Simon Gale:Yeah. Let's make sure we get to that at some point too.
Eric Loftus:Right.
Simon Gale:So one of the things that stood out at the Racquet X Summit this year in Miami was during your ASBA builders panel, and correct me if I'm wrong with the statistic, but it was that 80% of construction is renovation of existing clubs tennis courts. I'm not sure if that was conversion to pickle or it was just renovation in general. And maybe give us a bit of insight into what you're seeing trend wise with, you know, renovation of existing clubs versus new builds and kind of where Padel, which you said is emerging and coming on quickly, what the trend is with that in terms of building an interest at these clubs?
Eric Loftus:Yeah, it's very interesting. I think that might have been one of my colleagues from Florida who made that comment and that might be more of a regional observation. We're seeing construction across the board. So what's very interesting in the homeowner market and obviously there's a certain level of affluence here, that we're still seeing a lot of tennis courts being built. You have to have A, the capital and B, the land, right?
Eric Loftus:So there's only so many properties that really qualify. And now pickleball from the homeowner side, it opens a lot more yards because now you're talking instead of 7,200 square feet, you're talking less than 2,000 square feet. It opens a lot of availability. So now people want a Racquet Sport and Padel is roughly the same size, which we're very much starting to see as well, which opens a lot more availability for yard space, real estate, etc. On the club side, I think many of the clubs are still trying to play catch up.
Eric Loftus:Let's say many the old traditional tennis clubs are starting to play catch up and react to pickleball. Some of the country clubs are too, like I said, especially in our region. With Padel coming on the scene, what the concern is, is that some of this master plan will go on, whether it's a for profit club or a country club type situation, are going to react or it takes a couple of years to make this stuff happen. React to member demand and you get into master planning and then next thing you know, you're three years later. You design this whole plan around pickleball and now Padel pops up, right?
Eric Loftus:So it's how do you plan and leave yourself some real estate and leave yourself some master planning and programming around all racket sports. And what's kind of interesting in the club world, speaking more on the member club world, is that for a long time, at least in our part of the world, racket sports were second fiddle, right? It was just a golf club. Golf club got all the attention, all the money, everything else. Now it's, hey, we got a revenue driver here.
Eric Loftus:We got lessons. We got it's not just a certain segment of the population, and they're starting to get a seat at the table. So what'll be interesting when kind of get into some of this with the facilities is that how do you plan ahead to make sure that you're accommodating everybody and trying to, you know, have a little crystal ball for the future? So we're seeing a lot of you know, what we're unfortunately not seeing is purpose built tennis clubs hardly anywhere. I'm a tennis player.
Kim Bastable:You
Eric Loftus:know? It's a bit of a shame. I'm bit of a traditionalist too. Like obviously, I like all these sports. I'm a Racquet Sport junkie.
Eric Loftus:Like, a lot of people are who play one. You know, they play a lot. But you're seeing, just from an investment standpoint, it's hard to make 7,200 square feet the highest and best use of real estate for a tennis court when you have four people paying, you know, $25.30 dollars an hour to be on there. And it's just now there's people are staring towards these footprints where they can generate more money per hour by putting more people in the same square footage, and that's turning into Pickle and Padel.
Simon Gale:And are you seeing then a trend towards, say, Pickle and Padel in a multi sport facility, or are you seeing standalones? And in general, there's not a tennis court at all, or is it one or two tennis and then heavy on the other racket sports? What are you seeing?
Eric Loftus:That's interesting. A little bit of everything. You're seeing, like I said, in certain groups, tennis is still strong. So you're seeing there's a couple projects I know going in Florida, for example, that's bringing in kind of high end subsurface irrigated red clay tennis along with the other two sports, but all sports are being brought in. There are for a business, I don't think it is a unintelligent idea to have both pickle and paddle and being able to find which is gonna trend in your club.
Eric Loftus:The one thing about if you can start with paddle and then have a dedicated pickle space, it's pretty easy to convert one way or the other should one trend go one sport go on a stronger trend than the other, if you get what I'm saying. So like a lot these guys so one thing about pickleball right now, it's a known entity. Right? So you got people who are supply is still stripping outstripping demand. I mean, sorry, demand is still outstripping supply as far as people looking for places to play.
Eric Loftus:If So you're having a paddle club in an area that may never have seen it before, having a couple of pickleball courts to get people in the door is not a bad idea. You know, they start looking over their shoulder, seeing paddle, and sometimes there's some cross pollination. Some of the clubs that I've learned, they're actually two different demographics and both are strong. So you're getting some crossover. Right?
Eric Loftus:But you're also getting both aspects doing pretty well.
Kim Bastable:I think that's what we're seeing is that's getting more clear is this who who plays what.
Eric Loftus:Right.
Kim Bastable:And there really is a difference in the type of the customer that enjoys pickleball. They don't tend to wanna play Padel. They're intrigued, I think, but they often don't tend to want it. But I'm also hearing the trend of pickleball players never played a racket sport before as you said. And now they're saying, actually, I do wanna learn tennis.
Kim Bastable:Like, almost Padel is almost confusing because of the walls and the angles and it's almost overwhelming. But they'll they'll go to tennis, which feels like kind of a full court version of pickleball skills they've already learned. Have you felt that there's been a drive as pickleball has matured toward more tennis interests or is that sort of anecdotally not that true?
Eric Loftus:Yes. Maybe. Right? There's a there yeah. Like, do I see it's it's tough to say what's the actual driver.
Eric Loftus:I I do think more and more people are getting involved in Racquet Sports for a lot of different reasons. Right? I mean, there's a health study that just came out that said, you know, tennis players live longer. Right? And, like, if that's true, everybody should sign right up.
Eric Loftus:I think to that earlier point that you get some folks who may outgrow pickleball for whatever reason and they're looking for something a little bit more. Maybe they want to move around a little bit more. Maybe a friend of theirs has played tennis and has always tried to get you to play or something to that effect. Now you feel a little bit more comfortable going on the court. Know, obviously, the the difference is the learning curve.
Eric Loftus:Right? So tennis, I mean, how many lessons do you need to feel comfortable before you jump in on a round robin somewhere? You know, a bunch. Pickleball, you can get out there fairly quickly and feel like you're doing something like hitting the ball around. Padel, I think, you know, you're maybe not quite as quick as pickleball because you gotta learn how to play the walls, but I don't think you need 15 lessons at amount of dollars to feel good about being able to jump out there either.
Eric Loftus:Like, you might not have tennis court.
Kim Bastable:Well, and this this wasn't something we were gonna ask you, but I'm curious to know what your knowledge or what you've done regarding getting familiar with what's happening with Padel in Spain Because I've heard that there's more Padel there than tennis. Tennis is the courts are going away. I mean, there's really been that's kind of the most mature Padel region. Am I correct?
Eric Loftus:Sure. 100%.
Kim Bastable:Is there that fear? I mean, that's if that's happening in Spain, what's the next country that might happen in? Is are you familiar with what that is happening there?
Eric Loftus:Sure. I'm going to Barcelona in two weeks. It'll be my fourth time there in twelve months to to stay for this is the Padel World Summit that's going on over there. Yeah. So it's common numbers that are being thrown around.
Eric Loftus:So in The United States, we probably have almost doubled the and take this with a grain of salt because there are numbers that are flying around left and right. But as far as ballpark, a couple of years ago, there were about 80 to 100 courts in The United States, doubled to 200. Now there's four fifty to 500. I mean, there's more courts being installed every day that aren't hitting these numbers yet. And then there's 20 to 22,000 courts in Spain.
Eric Loftus:So they have a generation head start. It really took off in the nineties. Yeah. But the sport started the same year as pickleball in 1969 in Acapulco. And there was a businessman who brought it over to Spain and kind of took root there at the same time.
Eric Loftus:It went down to Argentina. So you'll see a lot of Latin Spanish influence regions playing Padel, and they're playing well. So, like, a lot of the good coaches you're seeing in The States in Miami are either from Latin America or Spain. Right? But as far as cannibalizing tennis, I don't know.
Eric Loftus:I mean, number one sport over there is soccer. Right? It's not even close. Number two is battle. The next biggest countries are Italy and France.
Eric Loftus:I think it's Italy. It's about 8,500 courts, and France is 6,500 courts from what I understand. Over the last year or so, I thought The UK was four fifty courts, but I just saw something this morning that said their LTA just said it's 800 something quarts. I mean, it's just happening really, really quickly. These numbers might be obsolete by the time this podcast goes live.
Eric Loftus:Don't know. I think we have Platomic, which is a booking software. Right? Every year, they've done a report on Padel worldwide with either Deloitte or PricewaterhouseCooper. I think those two two firms they've used or the same person moved from firm to firm or something.
Eric Loftus:They said that the way that they gauge success of a market, according to their report, is two things, purchasing power of a country, which The US has, right? And tennis penetration, meaning players for 100,000 people. So what you're seeing is these early adopters, and we're definitely seeing in The States, are racquet sports players. Like where I am in the Northeast, paddle, squash, tennis, these guys all want to try one Racquet Sport, you want play them all. I think there's so many, so much land, so many people, so much diversity in The US that it's going be hard for one sport to become dominant.
Eric Loftus:Especially at the youth level, my son's playing, I mean, jeez, he's got piano one day, lacrosse another day, soccer, runs track on Wednesday. You know, like, there's so much competing for your attention that I don't think you're gonna see it blow out tennis. I think it's just gonna be another activity that people do.
Simon Gale:Yeah. I think I'm in the same boat with that, Eric, and it's interesting too because then you hear stories about, I think it's in Sweden where there was a massive expansion of Padel courts and now you're seeing apparently quite a few facilities or places closed because there's too many courts. It's I think it's definitely gonna be country or region specific and it's gonna be fascinating. Who knows, as you said earlier, I'd love to have that crystal ball, it's gonna be fun to watch.
Eric Loftus:It'll be fun and it'll be fun. I mean, there'll be enough to your earlier point for good businesses to do things well. It'll be great for all Racquet Sports. I mean, it's just it's kind of an exciting time to be doing any of this, know. I'm happy to be here.
Eric Loftus:I feel I feel lucky to be part of it.
Simon Gale:Yeah. For sure. So what are some of the biggest challenges an existing facility faces when they add Pickle and Padel? I mean, I I I can just talk real quickly about a recent visit to Australia and you've got some really successful tennis clubs there in downtown areas where they have they're really land tied. They they don't have square footage to add and their tennis courts are booming.
Simon Gale:They wanna add these two sports, but they're not gonna be able to because the tennis members want the tennis courts. So that's an obvious one, but what else are you seeing outside of land issues?
Eric Loftus:I mean, I'm finding that's exactly the trend here, you know, and exactly the biggest challenge. So you have folks right now who are trying to figure out and you look at these big country clubs that look big footprint but the golf course is so much of it, right? And there's the short game area and there's everything else and and nobody's golf guys don't want to give up any of that, right? They've had it forever and why shouldn't they so to speak? Yeah.
Eric Loftus:So one of the on the club level, we're seeing folks going through this like, all right, where are we going to grab the land? How do we put in one court and then one court is not going be enough, right? If we can't do any programming with one or maybe even two courts, no matter what the sport is. A lot of times it's all right, these bigger clubs, do we try to take over a tennis court and put a couple courts out there? And the whole fight that, like you said, that goes along with that.
Eric Loftus:Right? And then there's the whole logistical aspect of that. So I'm finding that that is exactly the trend here in United States at the club level. Right? So especially in the Northeastern part of the world where everything's pretty well built out, but even as much so in other parts of the world.
Eric Loftus:There's only so much property they have that hasn't been developed already towards one sport or another. They're trying to figure and this is where some people are reacting, finally reacting to pickleball, but aren't thinking about Padel down the road. And let's see how it plays out. So I don't know. I mean, there are other there are types of things as far as obviously, with pickle, there's noise.
Eric Loftus:Right? There's that aspect is coming up all over the country and and it's real. You know? But the paddle not so much here, but it is a trend in England as people are trying to put these all in their back gardens and everything else. They're they're reacting into it similar to the way people are reacting to pickleball.
Eric Loftus:But sounds in our world, sounds like tennis and people have accepted that already. So I mean, the noise in pickleball lights is a perennial issue, but I think everybody's got pretty good at getting the downward lighting and reducing spillage on that end.
Kim Bastable:Yeah. So let's talk a bit about construction just so we do understand. I mean, I think, particularly, there's a challenge about when you throw out a cost of a Padel core, what
Eric Loftus:are you talking about?
Kim Bastable:Are you talking about the structure? Are you talking about the ground that's going on? You're talking about the crane that's gonna take to lift that thing out of a semi, put the parts in place? I mean, I feel like there's some hard costs there that may or may not be in the bid. Give us the download of construction and what that looks like steps and what has to happen.
Eric Loftus:Yes. This is part of the Wild West aspect of Padel right now. Right? So everybody the trend here in the last number of years is the Spanish companies rightly are looking at the American market, right? They're they then I say the Spanish companies, the European companies, they many of the big manufacturers are in Spain.
Eric Loftus:It's where the sports are established and they're looking at our three eighty million people that we have over here and Racquet players and it's a golden opportunity. So what they've done recently is say, all right, hey, we'll come over and sell direct from the factory. Sometimes they're saying, can come install it for you. And historically, that's been people coming over from Spain on a tourist visa to do the installation, which was not exactly above board here. I know of two crews have been turned around at JFK because they said they're on vacation here for the fourth time this year and they have a toolbox in their pocket.
Eric Loftus:Right? So it's so two of the crews were not allowed into The States for the installation. So unfortunately, that buying direct and and the other thing is afterwards, there's no customer service. There's nobody here. If something happens, now you're trying to get air mail from Spain.
Eric Loftus:We're trying to get just padding for a door brought over from Spain and it's so wait for the next shipment and everything else and you got to get out Of Port. I went through all these troubles myself in '22 when I first started importing quartz from over there as well. To bring it back to cost, I feel like the cost to do this right has been artificially low. And the other things, most of the European courts, although they're reacting to it, are not subject to American building and wind load codes, which is as the sport grows, the scrutiny around it is growing. Building departments are learning.
Eric Loftus:They're paying attention, realizing that there are compliances that need to be reached. Like I said, it's been a little fast and loose for a while. Right? And there's a lot of courts out here that may not stand up should, you know, a storm comes through. And it's it's gonna be a problem.
Eric Loftus:And that's and that's kind of part of the winners and losers things I was talking about earlier, Simon, is that, you know, the businesses that are kind of doing it right and thinking about the long term of this business are gonna see it out. To that point, a lot of times you're seeing courts landed here from spin, sold retail. Let's say you're buying it for your club, anywhere in the thirties to forties from a thousand dollar range. Right? Now there's installation.
Eric Loftus:Now the Spanish installation's been historically very cheap, but like I said, we've we all know about the problems that go go on with that. American workers getting American wages. Now their crews being developed around The United States to do this right who will have customer service on-site project management. And then there's your foundation. Right?
Eric Loftus:So you have the groundwork that has to go to go underneath these courts. And to get them approved correctly for the long term, a, these courts have to come in and get stamped by an American engineer to say they can stand up to the win load code. There's a win load code for every town in the country. And there's a online tool you can go and figure out what it is for your area. And you're gonna want your court stamped just in case heaven forbid there's an issue.
Eric Loftus:And you God forbid somebody gets hurt or something happens, insurance companies are not going to pay for something that wasn't properly installed. And if someone gets hurt, God forbid, you're gonna have a real problem. Right? Because you put something up that wasn't built local billing codes. So that's driving the price up to get a little bit.
Eric Loftus:So to answer your question, the slabs, depending so that's a concrete's very regional where it should be. But I bet you have 30 to $50,000 in ground working concrete or underneath the core on a pad. And there are parts, that people might tell me I'm crazy, but I'm speaking more to on the higher end, let's say, in the Northern part of The United States and and that sort of thing. It might be far less in Florida. I'm not sure.
Eric Loftus:The court themselves, let's just say 40 to keep it a little bit on the high side and a little conservative, and about 15 for install. So all in, you're probably looking about a $100,000 project.
Simon Gale:That's significantly higher than the numbers you hear out there. You hear 50 to 60 and and Mhmm. And then as well as what about the prep work, the foundation if, you know, if it's on an existing tennis court. So there's a lot of factors and I just think we're all learning what they are and I can tell you a story of a facility somebody told me who worked there that they had courts installed and maybe they came from overseas and within three to six months, the cages and so on, everything was rusting. So the quality of work and is it gonna work in the coastal climates here versus, you know, in in Spain or something like that.
Simon Gale:The Wild West is probably a pretty accurate statement but it's obviously going to evolve and surely there's going to be a stronger American building presence and and that quality control will improve too, right?
Eric Loftus:Yeah. And to be fair, a lot of the Spanish companies are doing it right, they're just not reacting quickly enough And so or they're reacting now in real time. So there there are very good quality quartz coming out of Spain. We've imported them using American labor. But whether it's manufactured here in The States or manufactured there to get the right product that's going to stand up and get approved, the price isn't going to be more in that range.
Eric Loftus:Know, I'd say once your groundwork's done, you should be counting on probably 60,000 to $75,000 for the cord instead of your $50,000 that you're hearing coming in from like on a dropped off on a container installed by who knows who. I I think that's going to evolve and become the norm as scrutiny increases and people really start to pay attention on what's being built here. But So I mean, there there are a number of Spanish companies now are building to the American market, and it's just taking a little time to get in there. But the early those early numbers of your 40 to 50, I'd I'd be very surprised if that holds for a good quality court going.
Kim Bastable:Let me jump in here and ask one question. I wanna know for clarification the different types of courts because can you put Padel Court on an asphalt tennis court? Should you put it on a clay court? Does it require a concrete base?
Eric Loftus:Okay. So, yes, there are mobile courts. So it depends on how permanently you want to put this thing in, right? So if you look at any tournament court, anytime if you went down to Racquet Padel, Simon, if you went to if you see anything on TV, those are sitting on a metal baseplate, right? So basically they're not anchored into the base.
Eric Loftus:So if you have a we're installing some temporary courts up here in Rhode Island in the next couple of weeks that are going on a hockey rink that they melt the ice in the summer, right? I mean, and then put the they're going put these courts on there and then turn it back into a rink in the winter. Everybody knows they're temporary quartz. They're gonna sit on top of a asphalt base, on top of plates, they're gonna be perfectly stable. Understanding they're temporary.
Eric Loftus:Understandably gonna be mindful of any storms that are coming through. Name storms, everything else will probably have to come and drop some glass or or the town well there, but they know they're temporary So, yes, you can do that. You can get away with it. If that was gonna be a long term installation, I would say you're kinda you're dancing a little bit. Right?
Eric Loftus:So you wanna make sure, like, on that say you're gonna convert an existing tennis court outside. You can build a perimeter beam. Don't You have to do the whole concrete slab, but the thing has to be anchored into concrete, not asphalt. You have to have something and it's just asphalt's not strong enough. Three inches of asphalt, it gets hot, it gets soft, things starts moving, you're going to pull the court out of it.
Eric Loftus:So you do have to have that you can use the interior of asphalt. You just do the rectangle around to anchor the court, leave the interior as asphalt for the turf to anchor the turf. Archery is a it's funny. We're involved in two projects right now trying to solve this problem. Right?
Eric Loftus:And we think we got it. The problem is every you've ever been on archery core, and I'm sure you guys have, after it rains, it's soft as anything. Right? You're putting big footprints in there. So that means that's an unstable base.
Eric Loftus:You know, if you're what we're doing is building a a base underneath, Indoors is going to work fine and with the mobile course on top, right? But outdoors, you still have to be conscious of water and how that's going to move the sub base and everything else. I'd be more inclined to scrape the inch of Hartree off because it's a little bit softer and maybe get the stone dust off. There's usually a gravel base mixed with sand, dense gray brace base under there, laser grade that, put the court on top of that. But there's still some risk dependent water and site settlement and everything else like that.
Kim Bastable:Well, and then I find the challenge that there's the drainage of water off these courts after rain because the turf absorbs the rain? Has that been mastered that there's been enough drainage angle to get the water to run off?
Eric Loftus:Yeah. Here's where I can bore you with all the minutiae. Right? So right now, we're working with USA Padel and the American Sports Builders Association to design the construction manual about how these things are should be built. We're we're finishing it up here shortly.
Eric Loftus:It should be out this summer. And it should be kind of like we've done this with partnerships with the UCA, with USA Pickleball, NCAA. We all work together basically to standardize how construction should be made here in The States. A half a percent from the net going either way is kind of a typical European way of draining water out there or the hardcore, every tennis court hardcore that you've been on likely has a 0.83% slope, inch and 10 feet. Turf tennis courts have been around for a long time, right?
Eric Loftus:And a lot of times these things are perforated, so the water will drain through and kind of sheet underneath the turf to get the water off the court. Yeah. If you do it right and you build it right, build the sanders on a, you know, sunny day, it should dry out fairly quickly. It's plastic and sand, know. If you get a real soaker, just like anything else, it's gonna be a lot quicker than clay.
Eric Loftus:Yeah. If you build it to the correct slope, you should be able to drain and and dry out fairly quickly.
Simon Gale:So Eric, clearly you're very knowledgeable in this space and you get paid to do this, but if you had to invest your own money and build the club of the future, what does that facility look like if you want a return on your investment?
Eric Loftus:So not just selfishly looking to play something? Yeah, exactly. You would
Simon Gale:have eight tennis courts and be broke within a couple of years.
Eric Loftus:Exactly. I think I would go at this point in time, kind of the earlier paddle pickleball model, knowing that if you build let's say, if it's outdoors, you build in a way that you could put paddle on top of the pickle, or you could remove the paddle and paint it as pickle or tennis and other sport. I mean, I am falling in love with paddle for sure. I'm becoming a junkie like a lot of these other people are, so I'd I'll definitely make that. But like I said, having that known entity where you already have a pent up demand for people looking to play, can't find enough pickleball courts, we'll bring people in.
Eric Loftus:Then you would have Padel and there's enough diehards already to kind of fill, let's say, four courts, so to speak. And then having the flexibility to do both, I do like the F and B aspect of it. Right? It's not my area of expertise. I'd bring somebody in there who knows exactly what they're doing on that end of it.
Eric Loftus:I think what I'm seeing is most important no matter what you're building is building a community around these clubs. The clubs that are doing well are becoming social. You're making new friends. You're like, there's a club I play up in Boston now that has, like, three WhatsApp groups that are just I I mean, I had to turn the notifications off my phone because it's just, like, all day long. Big, big, big.
Eric Loftus:You don't even need the pro to be making matches. Like, you just put the link out there and people just jump right in and join the game. You know? Like, I play and I probably played once a week up there, a little bit less lately, but I try to play once a week up there. And I always know that Friday afternoon, I can get a game.
Eric Loftus:Somebody will put a game up there that I can jump in at my level, and it's because the community is so strong. And the other aspect I would just add is getting a good coach who has played the game and not necessarily just at the beginning. You know, lot of these tennis pros are getting certified, which is great. But man, if you can get somebody who's been playing for ten years either in Spain, Argentina, somewhere else, Miami, whatever, I think getting that quality instruction at the beginning is gonna make the club a lot stickier. And I think that's kind of, from what we're seeing, is a success recipe.
Simon Gale:Yeah. I like to use the term, you need someone who wakes up every day and that's all they think about versus they dabble in multiple racket sports that the true participant sees through it very quickly and
Eric Loftus:says Right.
Simon Gale:Their heart's not in it, it's just another hour of their day. So you're spot on with that.
Eric Loftus:Yeah. You know the guys who go out there and, you know, they're playing tennis on the platform tennis court. And there's, like, ripping balls and, you know, it's a really good tennis players. Yeah. It's a different game.
Eric Loftus:But I'm not in the club business, so take that with a grain of salt.
Kim Bastable:I think it's a pretty learned answer, though. And I think the other question I always have is how many courts are people building? Because I do feel like you say develop a social aspect. It's almost hard to do on two courts. But if they are expensive, as you just said, and there's some risk involved, some education involved, where are the numbers?
Eric Loftus:The economics from the guys who are running all these models out there and there's a ton of investment behind us and a ton of smart people looking at it. The good the reason why there's so much investment here is that there the clubs are penciling out, right, even with real estate prices. Everybody tries to say, like, once you get six quarts, it really starts to look good. That said, I think it'd be tough to start an area that has no Padel background and have six quarts and fill them and watching your numbers. Probably four is really where it becomes viable.
Eric Loftus:It looks like it's gonna kinda run and make the math work. But at the beginning, there's gonna be a lot of marketing and push to get people out onto these courts. There's a core group of battle players in the country right now, but there's not the people dying the world tennis pickleball by people out there. So it's gonna take a little bit, and you gotta have a little bit of runway to make sure that you can make it. But I think you can do it with four.
Eric Loftus:I would probably we're considering it here. Like, I live on Cape Cod. It was, a seasonal three four court club out here. That one's a little bit more selfish, you know, look for a place to play, but that could be financially viable. And then as you add more, the economics really start to make sense.
Kim Bastable:Okay. And then the last question we never really did cover, and I think it I love some level of an answer is what are the options or have you found satisfactory options to covering these courts without building an entire building? Like, maybe just protecting from the rain and elements, but you can deal with 30 degrees, but you you can't deal with snow kind of thing.
Eric Loftus:That's the next thing coming. Right? So it's exactly right. So in Europe, they they're doing a bit of this already, and there's some really nice designs in polycarbonate buildings, you know, almost like a greenhouse type thing where you have almost like a domed, half dome ceiling that goes up to nine meters to give you the height for a paddle. And this is definitely applicable to pickleball too and tennis.
Eric Loftus:They have drop down walls that come down in the rain or the winter. So in the summertime, you're playing, you're not getting the sun, which can be annoying playing any racket sport that plays a lot upright as you know. And you get the breeze because you have the openings on the side. For a paddle, would be four meters because that's the height of the paddle court. So you get a cross breeze, you get rain or you get weather and you drop it and now you have a pretty enclosed building.
Eric Loftus:There's going be challenges in The US around some of this because as you get bigger and you get a certain amount of square feet, depending where you're located, you're going to start needing to hardwire sprinklers and get electricity and all this stuff in there. Basically fire tardant systems. That depends on where you are, but it becomes a square footage issue historically. So I think that is the next trend in the sport and basically pickle and paddle, maybe tennis to an extent to be able to cover these things for about a third of the cost of building a, like, steel building, so to speak.
Kim Bastable:And is there a comparison to the air structure, the traditional air structure?
Eric Loftus:I'm up here in the Northeast, right, where those things are temperamental. I don't know the pricing. We've always steered away from it because good winter storm can really trash them.
Kim Bastable:Take them down.
Eric Loftus:Yeah. And a lot of times people try to put them up and put them down. Like a lot of people come up in my business with the idea of doing a bubble, right, that air structure. And then when they get into the economics of it, what it cost to heat and take down, like all of sudden they get scared away. There's been some successful examples for sure.
Eric Loftus:But I think my part of the world is a little bit wary of it. But you see it more in soccer, year round type, you know, athletic facilities, that sort thing where it stays up full time. But if you want that outdoor kind of racket sports experience, the up and down gets a little difficult.
Kim Bastable:Excellent information, Eric. I really appreciate your time, and a lot of this does I mean, it's a fast moving situation. We could, you know, be outdated in six months, but I think what you've given us is pretty good oversight. So really appreciate your time. Any thoughts, Simon?
Simon Gale:Look. I think it's moving so quick, and there's new players in the game, and there's so much going on. It's hard to keep up with. So to get a little bit more of a grounding in where we're actually at from someone who does it versus what we hear on the grapevine was great in, as you said, in in a year or two, everything's gonna change.
Eric Loftus:Well, let's do it again a year from now and see where we are.
Simon Gale:You know? Exactly.
Kim Bastable:I'm up for that. A 100%. Alright. Thank you so much, Eric. Really appreciate it.
Eric Loftus:Yeah. My pleasure. Thanks for the time, guys.
Kim Bastable:Alright. That's what we have for you today on Racquet Fuel. We'll speak to you next time.
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