Golf and Tennis - with Anthony Vitale
Welcome
Episode Narration:to Racquet Fuel, where we launch into great conversations and share powerful tools to help you become a stronger rackets leader. Your hosts are Kim Bastable, a former All American tennis player and now the director of tennis management at the University of Florida. And Simon Gale, the USTA senior director of Racquet Sports Development. In this episode, do golf pros get certified and manage their work life balance any differently than professionals? We'll have a conversation with Anthony Vitale, director of coach and athlete development for the PGA of America, to compare and contrast the two profession.
Episode Narration:Here's Kim and Simon.
Kim Bastable:Welcome to Racquet Fuel. We are so excited today to be talking golf and tennis together. We're kind of intrigued by the comparisons of these two sports and the the work realities of of golf pros with tennis pros and how they compare and how they contrast. And we are welcoming Anthony Vitale, director, coach, and athlete development for the PGA of America to banter back and forth in a conversation with golf and tennis. Simon, this is pretty fun.
Kim Bastable:How do you feel about it?
Simon Gale:Well, we were just telling Anthony how golf is my number one passion outside of tennis. So I am excited to have this conversation and and have quite a few friends in in that industry who do it as a profession. So I'm fascinated to hear a little more about what the PGA is doing. So Anthony, welcome. And, you know, could you start off with giving us a little bit of your background and explain your role at the PGA?
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. Thanks for having me on. I'm really excited to talk golf and tennis. Fan of both sports. Super fan of golf for sure.
Anthony Vitale:But, yeah, I I got started really with golf in in high school. I had an opportunity to go get some free range balls and try out for the golf team my freshman year after being not prepared whatsoever. Borrowed my dad's clubs, went out. Didn't make the team eventually my freshman year, but thought it was fun. Thought you know what?
Anthony Vitale:That was incredible. And through the process, I I knew I wanted to be a golfer. So I I got a I went through some connections I had, got a job at a golf course, and started working in golf to be able to afford golf at a little public golf course in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and the rest is history. I've never worked another job in my life. Worked in various aspects of the business, went to a golf management university that that New Mexico State partnered with the PGA of America.
Anthony Vitale:I now have a PGA member. I've traveled the world working on golf. Now I get to work for the association and try to grow the sport that I love.
Kim Bastable:That's excellent. So what's your day to day life now? What do you what are your roles? What are your responsibilities?
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. So as the director of coach and athlete development, really, I spend the majority of my time, my team and I work on supporting our coaches with the tools, the education, resources, and marketing that they need to be successful coaches. And successful coaches for for us in golf and at the PG of America are trying to recruit as many golfers into this sport as So how can we develop our athletes through supporting our coaches? Ultimately, they are the ones day in and day out that are at the golf course, growing the sport, working with athletes to help them become golfers for life. And that's how my team and I, we spend our time dedicated to that.
Kim Bastable:Can you just describe for people that may not know golf the difference between a touring pro and a teaching pro? Is there a different organization for each of those, or or how's the governance work?
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. So the PGA of America, the association that I work for, we represent 31,000 golf professionals that work in golf day in and day out. They're at the golf courses. They're at the the golf techs. They're at all the various ways that you might be able to work in the sport because they're passionate about it.
Anthony Vitale:We still play golf in a competitive way. Most many of us do, usually at the the local areas and our local sections all the way up through you could still be a member of the PGA of America and play golf in professional events because you're good. We do have quite a few members that that are quite good at golf. But the PGA Tour, that is that's who you see on TV. Those are our members who have dedicated their careers to playing golf professionally, earning their paychecks through golf.
Anthony Vitale:And there are a few that are dual members as well. We do have PGA Tour members who are members of the PGA of America, but for the most part, 31,000 of us working in golf every single day.
Kim Bastable:That's excellent.
Simon Gale:Anthony, we have a six or seven day work week. It's pretty normal in our industry. It's roughly 75% or more of our profession teach six or seven days a week. And it's something that us in leadership roles are concerned about and we have spent twenty, twenty five years every time somebody leaves the industry saying, Wow, we just lost another great young pro who had a huge upside but they have left the industry a little disenchanted because of the lack of work life balance and the grind of doing this and don't see a pathway to a different lifestyle. So we lose them and it's this leaky bucket type situation and it's a long term problem for industry.
Simon Gale:So I've been pushing hard and we've talked about it a few times on the podcast about a five day work week culture and we've actually have that in place here at the National Campus. What's the reality with golf? Is that even something you guys talk about? Is it an issue in your industry? Tell us a little bit about golf status around the work week.
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. Absolutely. Our our sports are very similar in that in that place for many, many years. It used to be you're at the golf course seven days a week, six days a week, depending on what climate you live in. It could be seasonal for all go and then some some time in the winter to relax or or vice versa, but it's something that we've recognized.
Anthony Vitale:And, I mean, I've got my own personal story around that one. It's it's one of the reasons I I took a job with the PGA of America. I was that that golf professional. I was young, getting ready to start a family, and the next steps for me in the in the business of of golf was gonna be a new facility working six, seven days a week right about the same time I was looking to start a family and have kids. And I didn't see a match where that was gonna work, and and this opportunity that the PGA of America came along to have a little more of that balance, and I took it.
Anthony Vitale:And I I love that I did, and now I'm in a role in a position that I can help change that. And we're seeing a shift in golf where many facilities are starting to recognize if we wanna attract top talent, we have to be flexible. I can't make my staff work six, seven days a week, sixty hours a week or sixty hours a week because I did it, and they're starting to realize that we we have to change if we wanna attract and retain this top talent. So we're seeing a lot of facilities offering five day weeks or weekends off in the middle of summer, which is has been unheard of. Unheard of all.
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. And because we you have to, and it's a chance to recharge. And we're seeing testimonials every day of golf professionals coming back and saying, I I never thought this would work, my staff is happier. They're working harder when they're here. They're not burned out.
Anthony Vitale:They're providing better service, and it's something that we're we're starting to change. The last two facilities that I worked at, both private clubs, are both doing the same now. Things that I thought would never happen at those two facilities are offering six day a week with a with alternate shift start times, way fewer hours, five day work weeks, weekends off, being creative, and and building staffing and building a schedule to accommodate that. It's something that I think we'll continue to see start to change across not just golf and tennis, but across a lot of the service industry.
Kim Bastable:So we realized that COVID was an impact on both of our sports, and I think I don't know. Maybe maybe more golf, maybe the same. But there was I wrote an article for RSI Magazine in 2023 that reflected upon a conversation that I think was going on in the golf industry because I had read an article in Golf Digest that talked about this this real dilemma of golf pros didn't wasn't really weren't really experiencing what they thought life was gonna be like as they came up, and they they dreamed of being a golf pro. And then they got there and and found that it was quite grueling. And even that the person who was the director was so overworked that after they were there for a while, they really didn't wanna become a director.
Kim Bastable:They didn't really want that life of someone ahead. So I know you say that you have are seeing a trend, but I'm curious because I feel like we still have this image in in the world of tennis where the director we might allow our staff pros to work five days a week, but the director's there six and seven because that's when the members are there. And so so I don't know. Was that COVID, or was that always a problem within golf that you had these long work weeks?
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. The the article you you mentioned in Golf Digest, the the golf pro crisis, when it first came out, everyone kinda freaked out. Like, oh my gosh. It's just absolutely we're never gonna be able to attract people to wanna work in this again. And maybe that happened for a little bit.
Anthony Vitale:There's probably a few people that use that article as a way to say, you know what? That's right. That confirms what I've been feeling, and I'm out. But it's actually one of the best things that happened to golf in that it's Golf Digest, and it was all over the Internet. In in the social media channels, LinkedIn, all the places as a golf professional that I was and that a lot of golfers would be online, this was coming up.
Anthony Vitale:So you had boards of directors, general managers, city managers seeing this article and realizing, oh, you know what? We we have been working our golf staff pretty hard, and they are here seven days a week in the summer, and I would never do that in my industry. And so we're we are starting to see that even the top leadership positions. I talked about how our leaders in golf were making it better for their staff, but even our top golf the top positions in golf were seeing the ability to work with their board of directors, work with their owners, the city to say, you know what? We are gonna restructure things here a little bit.
Anthony Vitale:And I know I'm the director of golf, and I'm you're used to seeing me here seven days a week, but I am gonna take Sundays off to be with my family. I am gonna take Mondays off, or I am gonna come in, get the get things started on Monday, but then I'm gonna go home for the day. Whatever that looks like, we're seeing a lot more flexibility, and I think that article made it okay. Gave that little bit of awareness to the stakeholders in golf to say, you know what? That that we can't expect this all the time, and it is a healthy thing.
Anthony Vitale:And we've never seen in we've we've seen a lot of change in golf. We've never seen our pathway to PGA membership. We call it our associate program, but we've never seen it stronger. Over 5,000 new members on the path to become PGA members right now, and we've never seen in the over a hundred years of the association that many new golf in the pipeline. And I think it's because they're seeing potential and they're seeing a different industry than what they might have expected previously.
Simon Gale:Well, sounds like they're hearing different stories and may be encouraged by that. I think that the the similarities with our tennis industry and being able to get out and tell stories of tennis pros going through a similar pathway. It has to change if we want to be sustainable long term, but I think it takes some of the big clubs and the larger larger facilities that employ a lot of people telling those stories to get everybody and have that trickle down effect. So that's interesting to hear and and encouraging because my question was going to be, is 31,000 golf pros enough that you mentioned? You know, do you do you need to feed that funnel?
Simon Gale:Is there a shortage in general of teaching pros for the the demand that's out there?
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. That's that 31,000, it's one of the questions we're looking to answer right now. We were, for a while there, thinking, you know, we might maintain that pipeline. We we did lose some during COVID, and we were doing everything we could to try to attract new talent. And now we're trying to to figure out, okay.
Anthony Vitale:They're they're coming. What's the right number? And it's not just what's the right number, which is something that we're looking to identify really what that balance is, but we're also looking to redefine what our profession looks like. And the the PGA of America 30 ago, pre Internet, pre iPhone, pre all these things that have you connected every single day, was quite a bit different. So how can we evolve the profession in something that we can train our new members and train our current members in?
Anthony Vitale:How can we evolve that to align with today's needs? And and one of the things we're doing is trying to not just say, alright. We're gonna do exactly what you did before, but you're gonna do it five days a week instead. That doesn't necessarily work because the same amount of work is still going to exist. It's it's now realigning the needs of each golf facility, each each management company, whatever that is, with the right people in the right roles.
Anthony Vitale:And there's some PG of America golf professionals that are gonna be great teachers and coaches. That's what their passion is, and they love doing that. How can we have them do more of that in the five days a week that that they want to do it? There's some that love golf operations, running the whole golf tournaments, the merchandising, the the day to day operations of the club, of which some of that might be teaching and coaching. What's the right balance in the work week for them to do those things?
Anthony Vitale:And then there's some that that don't wanna do any teaching and coaching. They don't wanna do a whole other golf operations, but just like the entire club operations, we call that our executive management track. We we're working to help prepare them to be better general managers. And so if we could start to put people in the right roles for the right amount of time per week, now you actually have a chance of of having more of a balanced work week that if one person has to do all those things and just a little bit of them, that that's how you could quickly add up to sixty, seventy, eighty hours a week if you're trying to do all the things at the golf operation instead of kind of following your passion, staffing people in the right places.
Kim Bastable:So can you explain a little bit about how many years or the steps or the stages? I think that we in Tennis think that our certification process is sort of in a transition. It's maybe shorter than it should be. Yours, I think, is quite extensive. It's multiyear.
Kim Bastable:So we need, I think, to understand all the steps, and now it seems like you have these three pathways as well. So can you give us the short version of of how you get to becoming in one of those roles? How many years?
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. We were probably longer than it should be because we were training our members to do everything. You had to learn every single thing, and that's even when I went through, I graduated the PGA golf management program at New Mexico State in 2008, and we had to learn everything. Did it all. For my program, took me four years.
Anthony Vitale:If you do it outside of the university program as an associate, it can go up to nine years. And there were some people that took all nine years to do it because it was it's quite significant. In the last few years, we revamped that, aligned it with our career tracks, and now we're seeing with the newest version, it's gonna take somebody two or three years to go through all three levels of our education, and it's more specific to the career track you pick. So it it that'll help speed it up a little bit. Let's be honest.
Anthony Vitale:Nine years, way too long to do it, but a weekend, probably too short. Somewhere in between, and we're at that two, three years, and some of that is in person, some of that is online and we're trying to find what that right balance is. But I think it's working. We've got some people staying in that pathway a little bit longer than they historically have.
Simon Gale:And would you say that for most part, this is something you'll be doing while you're working full time in the profession versus it is two to three years like going to college. It is two to three years while you are potentially mastering your craft as a teacher or in in in the in the merchandising or whatever aspect you're working in. They're working alongside each other. Is that fair?
Anthony Vitale:It is. And the university program is you you get your education through the university program, and then you apply it during summer internships and extended internships. The associate program, you're working in golf every single day, and you're doing your online education. You you come here to Frisco, Texas, the home of the PGA of America, do some of your education in person, but then you're doing every single day. You're doing work experience.
Anthony Vitale:You're doing application of what you're learning on-site with mentor professionals in your area and working to become a member while while applying that every single day.
Kim Bastable:So you really would hire a club would hire someone with no certification, and then there's a process to become certified as sort of a work on the job and and educate as well. That's kind of the way it generally works.
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. There's there's quite a I mean, there's there's nuances to different parts of it, but generally, a golf professional, a PGA member would hire somebody and say, we're gonna start you working whatever aspect of the golf operation, and some of them require and it's I mean, this is these are all private enterprises. There's there's no ability for us to require much, but those golf professionals can hire somebody in and require them to go through and become a PJ member and mentor them. That's one of the the things that I loved most about working at golf was always having interns every summer, new associates coming out that would ask for help. They're going through their their PGA education, and they're asking you constantly, alright.
Anthony Vitale:I have to turn in this assignment. It requires me to do these these things. Can I work on this project this week? Because it's what I need to be working on. And the the golf professionals that are members would help out those future associates as well.
Anthony Vitale:It's a mentorship side as well.
Kim Bastable:But who would pay for that, and how would you I mean, there's the cost of the education. There's the cost of the travel to get to Frisco, and then there's the lost work time. So how does that financially work in golf?
Anthony Vitale:It it varies from employer to employer. Some employers pay for your PGA membership dues. They pay for your education to become a PGA member. I've heard some that are even paying for travel and continuing to pay you your salary even for the the week. I mean, you basically need to do two weeks here at the home of the PGA throughout your time in the associate program, and there's some employers that are are paying normal salary while they're here going through the education side.
Anthony Vitale:So you see all ends of the spectrum down to the independent contractor that's paying for all of it on their own.
Simon Gale:It's interesting because the structure of of of the golf pathway has been in place a long time. And so I think one of the challenges that we have, like, you're talking about, well, maybe nine years was too long and in this day and age, it's way too long if you can't get it drive through and pick it up now. It's too long for anything, isn't it? So you're challenged there but you can work it back and say, now we've got a three year program but you've got this structure of of of a pathway where you've got to go to and do the on-site learning or work under a PGA pro and you've got this pathway. I think as a Racquet's industry, the struggle we have is that certification for a lot of pros is not viewed as a badge of honor that I am required to have in order to get a job.
Simon Gale:And I know you you don't have to be a PGA pro to go and teach golf at the at the local range. But if you want a good job and a long career, you probably need it to get one of those top positions. So our challenge is getting pros to buy into certification and ongoing education, but also getting facilities and managers to require that of their teaching pro. So those better jobs and better clubs you talk about in golf, it feels like it's it's a prerequisite. If you're not PGA certified, you're not getting the director of golf job at a at a platinum country club.
Simon Gale:You're not even gonna get an interview. Is that fair to say? And and and is there is there a buy in from employers for the need for a PGA pro?
Anthony Vitale:I mean, we we're very similar in that that space. We ideal case, everybody working in golf would be a PGA member in one way or the other, and employers require it. But it's not always a game. In golf, as in tennis, I'm sure there's there's places that are very well established, big infrastructure, larger budget, and they can can go through those things and require. And then there's some who who don't feel like they can afford a PJ member.
Anthony Vitale:Oh, that's I'm just gonna hire the the person who shows up in person. We're gonna post locally, and we're not gonna require PJ membership because that that seems like overkill for our really small rural golf operation. That's something that we're looking to change. There's a PJ member that can fill many different roles across all of golf, and we're deeply dedicated towards highlighting the value of hiring a PGA American golf professional, and we have various ways we're trying to communicate that locally. We have 41 PGA sections, all that have a relationship locally with golf courses, with other members, with the golf community.
Anthony Vitale:We have career consultants that are there to work with employers and our members and prospective members to find the value to post jobs to recruit individuals. We have a executive recruiting team that'll go out and find the very best candidates for the job that you want as an employer and try to recruit new people to come in. And we have recruiters that are every day going around different aspects of the golf world trying to recruit new people into the PG of America to fill the various roles. And then we we also have player engagement consultants, those who are members that are currently out there working in the coaching space. We have a team of consultants that are out there helping them with their business, trying to grow their participation through programs and participation through some of that coach and athlete relationship, trying to improve that as well.
Anthony Vitale:So we're trying to increase the need of, hey, because you're a PGA member, it comes with so many other things that can help both you, the member, and the employers and work on those relationships at the same time.
Simon Gale:Are they newer aspects to the PGA's business model and has that come because you guys woke up and had an idea or has it come from feedback from your members and feedback from employers saying, we need help with this? How did those things come about? Are they relatively new?
Anthony Vitale:Definitely an evolution. Our our career consultants have almost doubled in size in the last few years because the the demand from employers and from our members to to work hand in hand. It's not just job posting. It's full career assistance for those members. The recruiting side is definitely something that came out of demand from the industry.
Anthony Vitale:We don't wanna go through and search through hundreds or thousands of resumes for for some of these top jobs, so we will use our PGA ExecuSearch. They that industry demanded that from us, and we filled that with that executive recruiting side. And the player engagement consultant role is around ten years old, and that has been very helpful because our members were looking for help with running with the various programs that are offered to the PGA or connecting better with some of the golfers that the our coaches are working with.
Kim Bastable:So let's talk a couple of numbers just to give some perspective. What would you say is the round figure of what it costs outside of travel? Well, not deciding travel, but just the education pieces for their three years to get through. Is there a ballpark of what that investment is for the education? And then secondly, are there ongoing requirements for further education?
Kim Bastable:And then do those cost something so that you maintain a a continuing membership? How does that work?
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. So the just over $4,000, what it's gonna cost you through the or through our associate program over the course of all three levels to become a PGA member. Our university program, roughly gonna be the same in the the fees that are charged through your university, but then you're also gonna pay your university what whatever it costs to get a degree from each of those universities. And then the ongoing education side, we have a little bit of both. We have continuing education.
Anthony Vitale:That's one of the things that I'm directly responsible for is our accessible to everybody continuing education around the coach side of things. We have various ways to go through that. We have some more formal education steps that you can go on. Part of becoming a PGA member is a commitment to lifelong learning, and whether that's some of the stuff that I offer through the programs I'm responsible for, or we have three different additional levels of certification through the PGA. You can become a certified or a specialized PGA American golf professional, which is more paid, education you can go through.
Anthony Vitale:The next step after that would be a certified professional, kind of an additional level of certification, and then finally, a master professional. So there's various levels to continue on through that process to continue to separate yourself from your your peers.
Simon Gale:And is there a requirement with that in terms of ongoing education credits, for example, like over the course of multiple years, you have to hit x number of ongoing education hours or credits in order to maintain your status, and how does that work with with a golf professional?
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. Just to just to maintain your good standing with the PGA, every three years, we have our cycle of professional development requirements, and you or you earn credits, and there's various buckets you have to fill through those credits. Any of our continuing education would help fill some of those requirements for sure.
Simon Gale:But it's required to maintain your your your PGA badge or PGA status?
Kim Bastable:Correct. Yep. Do you feel that the marketplace of players appropriately respects and even asks about the certification level of a possible pro if they call a club or facility and and sign up for a lesson? Do they ask, is this person certified? Is it assumed?
Kim Bastable:Where where is the perception of the public?
Anthony Vitale:That's it's tough to say. I mean, there's some places that that totally get it. They see the the PGA letters by your name, which is the the common certification that a PGA member would come up PGA after their name, and that for some, that carries a lot of weight. I think for some, that could be a little bit intimidating. Oh, I don't need a PGA pro.
Anthony Vitale:I just need somebody to help me, like, come out here and not embarrass myself. I don't need a PGA pro, And that's that's one of the things that we're looking to change that assumption in the industry that, hey. Just because you're a PGA member and you have the PGA letters after your name or you've gone through additional certification doesn't mean that you are only for serious golfers. Some of our best members that are doing having the greatest impact on the industry are reaching out to complete beginner golfers, reaching out to communities that are underserved, and pulling people into the sport for the first time and helping them feel welcome and meeting them where they are, speaking their speaking their local language that they need to hear to feel comfortable and welcome in golf. There's no there's no surprise that golf, probably even tennis a little bit, is a an exclusive exclusionary sport.
Anthony Vitale:Like, if you're either in or you're out, and I think a PG of American golf professional is one of the the key stakeholders that can help pull people in that otherwise don't think that they that golf might be for them. Golf can be for everybody, and we are actively training our current members and our future members to recognize the the impact that they can have on their communities by pulling people into the sport and not just waiting for them to come to you.
Simon Gale:So in the tennis industry, compensation is always a sensitive issue, but it really hasn't changed much over time in our industry. For the most part, pros are paid hourly for the lessons they teach. It's that eat what you kill type industry. If it rains, you're out of luck and you don't get paid and you try and make up those lessons and that's just part of the job. Some pros once you reach leadership roles will see some salary plus some on court or hourly rate combinations and maybe a bonus if you're at a well structured club that's doing well financially as well.
Simon Gale:Benefits are not common. It's estimated about 20% of our industry receive some sort of benefits package. So when you put that all together and you compare a young tennis player coming out of college and thinking about a career in tennis or a career where I can work hybrid hours, work from home, work off my laptop, work in my pajamas if I want to, you know, the pathways are very different. How does the golf compensation model tend to work and is it different pros through kind of directors of golf and and percentages, that sort of thing? Not looking for numbers, but more just the structure and what that model tends to look like.
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. And again, it it varies depending on the employer, but we have independent contractors who very much the more you work, the more you'll make, all the way through larger companies that are paying salaries. One of the things that our career consultants are responsible for is our annual compensation survey, where we survey all our members, all of our associates. We've seen participation in the survey continue to rise, which is a good sign that people are interested in seeing how they stack up against their peers, but we're also seeing compensation itself rising. Our career consultants are very proud of the fact that as they're negotiating these new jobs, and as they are working with golf professionals every single day to ask for that raise, use the right language, use the build the right case to present to their employer to to justify, additional income, we're seeing that continue to rise, and it's a variety of ways.
Anthony Vitale:One of the things we're trying to do is get away from that. In order to make more money, you're just gonna have to work more, especially for the independent contractors. How can we restructure and challenge, especially in the coaching side, how can we challenge you to think about your coaching business a little bit differently? Traditionally, in golf, you wanna get better at golf, you find your golf pro, you pay for a one hour lesson, and they're gonna fix you for an hour. And we've seen the world change a little bit over the last few years where there are some cases where that is still incredibly valuable, and there's still some people that are gonna pay top dollar for an hour of your undivided attention.
Anthony Vitale:But if the world of CrossFit has taught us anything, it's that people really love to learn and get better together, set goals together, hold each other accountable. And some of our most successful coaches financially right now are figuring out how to tap into that. They're figuring out how can I put together programs that are exactly what the consumers in my area want, and how can I tap into one of the primary reasons people are playing golf? And the social aspect of golf is more powerful than the competitive. It's more powerful than the, oh, I wanna just come out here and get away from everything else and focus by myself on the driving range or on the course by myself.
Anthony Vitale:The I'm gonna connect and play golf for social reasons is really powerful. And socially improving your golf skill is really, really what's driving that.
Simon Gale:Well, if golf's learned something and and and I I often put my hand up and say, what are we doing in tennis that's equivalent of golf with Drive Shack and Topgolf? I have one down the road and I go there a bit, probably too much some would say. But you go there and 90% of the people can't play golf. There's people who are almost falling over the the tee box and thank God for that safety net because they spin around and fall over after they hit a ball. But they're laughing.
Simon Gale:They're having fun. They're engaged with the digital interaction. They're having food and drink. And I sit there and say, well, these places have got it right. And even Tiger Woods' place, the the mini golf is extremely popular.
Simon Gale:But they've got the social aspect first and foremost and golf almost is secondary. And so tennis does pretty good job with that. We've been very social and and run events, but we do a lot of groups and programs and and we encourage groups versus privates because we make more money out of a group lesson. So golf generally from what I've seen has been a private lesson sport, very technical. So it's it's interesting you say that, but I see the social aspect of these drive shacks and top golf.
Simon Gale:So they must have helped local golf pros to some extent with some some sort of carryover into people then saying, wanna get better at this sport. Have you heard any stories along those lines?
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. That's it's another one of our main priorities here at the PGA is we have almost as many off course golfers than on course golfers right now, and by that, we mean your Drive Shack, your Topgolf. They're growing at a at a an increasingly high rate. How can we increase the number of people who are doing both or increase the number of people who who try Topgolf for the first time, get intrigued by the sport, engage in a program, get better at the sport, and become golfers for life? And that's one of the things that we're looking to to capitalize on, and our some of our coaches are are doing it just because they found a way to do it in their local market through fun social kinda transition you into the sport.
Anthony Vitale:And it's it's really fun to see this many new people coming into golf, and it's or or participation rates have never been higher.
Kim Bastable:Wow. That's good to hear. Well, I think it's you sound like you've made some great advances, learnings, changes based on what, you know, Simon pointed out, feedback from the pros or feedback from the market. So as as we, in tennis, learn from golf, what what's something that you just from what your your general knowledge of tennis, you know, what what can we do? What can our pros do?
Kim Bastable:What can we take away from golf that could help us in your opinion?
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. I think it's something that I know I realized, many of us realized through COVID, how powerful our social connections are and our our face to face time is. Digital everything is gonna continue to grow, and the amount that you can get out of, you can leverage that to help. You can you can participate in a digital way with people and grow both of our support. But where I think we're gonna be sit where we're gonna be really strong for many years to come is our ability to use those face to face relationships we have with people that are engaging in our sport and continue to grow that, recognize that our human connections are one of the most powerful things that we missed out on during COVID, and people are now seeing they're participating both of our sports at the end of COVID continuing towards through now, and I think that's a that's an advantage for our sports.
Anthony Vitale:How can we leverage people coming together and connecting for the benefit of our sport?
Kim Bastable:I think that's a good message. I mean, it really does come down to that. We are we are a hospitality high hospitality profession. Comes down to the people, the relationships. Do you have any additional thoughts, Simon?
Simon Gale:No. I think I think you hit the nail on the head and and we we say the same thing in tennis. It's a this is a connection sport. Our role or our job is to facilitate bringing people together and get them hooked on the sport and not to become a lesson sport, but a sport that people play, and then they come to us for lessons when they wanna get better. I think we've become a lesson sport and we've gotten away from the connection a little bit.
Simon Gale:And we're lucky that we're in an industry that you get paid to teach a sport that you love and there's not many jobs you can teach at a recreational level and make a career out of it. Generally have to be at a pro level in other sports to to make a living. So I I love that you're talking about connection. I think it's very similar. The the parallels with our industry very aligned.
Simon Gale:So I've learned a lot today, actually. It's been good to to hear what the golf industry is doing. So I thank you for your time and and the insight, and we could probably do a three hour version of this, but thirty minutes has been a lot of fun.
Anthony Vitale:Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. I love talking golf. It's it's my job, but getting to talk a little bit of tennis has has been a lot of fun. Just being able to visit the the campus, the Nash USTA National Campus recently has got me excited.
Anthony Vitale:I got my whole family excited. We're gonna be playing tennis as a family here pretty soon, and maybe I'll I'll share that story some other time.
Kim Bastable:That's awesome. We love to hear that. Well, we are partners in the in the world in many ways. Many tennis pros see the golf pro, you know, 500 feet away on a regular basis, so we need to work together. So that's all today that we have for you on Racquet Fuel.
Kim Bastable:We really thank Anthony for being here, and we'll see you next time.
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